Bones 3.15 The Pain in the Heart

Discussion of TJ's most popular venture to date!
late_heart
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by late_heart »

ThyneAlone wrote:Stop it already. Either go back to the exquisite colour, light, shade and translucent quality of S1, with properly studied characters (I can't believe Hart said we had finished exploring Zach!!!) and realistic, intelligent dialogue, or leave the whole thing alone and turn it into a springboard for the cast, who deserve better and might well get 'better' elsewhere.
Superbly said!

My SO & I wanted to give the show the benefit of the doubt, so we rewatched it this evening. And after reading Eric's reactions, Hanson's justifications, etc., it made it worse. A pain in the heart? True enough.

The only upside I see is that the supporting cast have been in a hit show, and it's hopefully a career/pay scale boost. As for the show? I'm taking back that hour. I'll tivo it and ff to TJ's scenes.

:(
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...he remains Hodgins of the unstoppable libido, with the constantly coiling Kundalini, the freaky twist of mystic master meets geekzilla. He’s still a poet, a shaman of the weird, and he’s in there, somewhere...

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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by bonesaddict11 »

Geezus Christ. You guys have said it all. Maybe next time i should post right after i watch the episode instead of waiting a day. =)

But seriously, your guy's response was right on. I enjoyed reading it. I'll try and come back later to put in some of my thoughts.

I gotta run but kudos all around to everybody!!!
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by Sinkwriter72 »

I've been pondering a lot today. Came to the realization that the rest of the cast has been back filming S4 episodes during all this craziness, and without Eric, no less. I imagine it's potentially difficult for TJ and the others, not seeing a member of their family every day anymore. Plus there's the pressure of needing to remain professional, no matter what personal feelings they may or may not have about this change in their cast and program. It can't be easy.

I want TJ to know that I'm thinking about him, and that I hope he and the rest of the wonderful cast are doing okay.

And always remember, TJ, no matter what discussions we have here in the forums, no matter how passionate our opinions get, the main truth will always be that we think you are an amazing talent and a terrific guy, and we are loyal to you as fans. That is absolute.

I love ya! :D
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by late_heart »

Sinkwriter72 wrote: TJ, no matter what discussions we have here in the forums, no matter how passionate our opinions get, the main truth will always be that we think you are an amazing talent and a terrific guy, and we are loyal to you as fans. That is absolute.
Eloquent, as always.

I need you to balance out my root chakra, which has been on red flare for a copule days.

Why? I just left this comment at E!Online Watch With Kristin:

"we've gone as far as we can with Zach" is producer-speak for keeping the overhead low, just as giving the leads vanity credits and more 'creative control' is a euphemism for keeping the salaries under control. Well, that is if you call the addition of a beer hat, a cigar, and a cringe-worthy goofus act 'creative.' Kristin, the next time you see D-Bo, please tell him to step away from the writers room. Oh, and tell Hanson to straighten up -- he doesn't have to bend over everytime Fox drops the soap.

Still pissed. Unapologetically inatriculate. And totally in agreement with what Eric M. told Kristen about TJ's reaction to his departure: it's not okay.
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by Sinkwriter72 »

late_heart wrote: Eloquent, as always.

I need you to balance out my root chakra, which has been on red flare for a copule days.
Oh, I don't think I'm necessarily the gal to do that! I've certainly been reeling for the past two days, trying to get my head around this whole thing.

And the more I read, the more frustrated and ticked off I became. I've said plenty here, and on LJ in the various threads about the episode, as well as on the threads about interviews with both Eric and Hart. I found some of Hart's comments very, very frustrating, especially coming from a writer's perspective. (Amateur though I may be.)

But at the same time, I have no idea how that arena works. I've never worked in television or film, so I don't know how much choice or say he had in the matter. For example, whether he could have fought for more time to develop this particular plot point, or take another approach, or not. I don't like the final choice, for many reasons, but I can respect the portion of the situation in which this whole season has been thrown off by so many factors, and they were trying to cram in and resolve as much as possible in only two episodes (part of the problem, in my opinion, but that's another conversation).

Last night I settled down a bit, and the reason for that was because I read an interview with a very diplomatic and respectful Eric Millegan. He talked about the cast members who struggled with the plot choice, and that's what made me pull out of my own head and start thinking about the actors and what a difficult position it must be for them.

They who are still working on the show have to have boundaries and be respectful of their employers and be professional in the media and present a strong confidence in how the upcoming season will be treated. They can't go off on rants themselves, even if they too were in disagreement, frustration or in shock and disbelief at the choices made. They have to be professional first and foremost. Sometimes that is so difficult, when you just want to shout, "What the ??!? Are you kidding?"

It just seems like a crappy position to be in, and I hope they're all muddling through together as best as they can. And I realized in thinking about that, even though I'm still verbal about why I think that was the wrong plot and character 'development' choice, I want to be supportive, especially of TJ who has been so lovely and engaging with all of us.


late_heart wrote: Why? I just left this comment at E!Online Watch With Kristin:

"we've gone as far as we can with Zach" is producer-speak for keeping the overhead low, just as giving the leads vanity credits and more 'creative control' is a euphemism for keeping the salaries under control. Well, that is if you call the addition of a beer hat, a cigar, and a cringe-worthy goofus act 'creative.' Kristin, the next time you see D-Bo, please tell him to step away from the writers room. Oh, and tell Hanson to straighten up -- he doesn't have to bend over everytime Fox drops the soap.

HAHAHA

Oh my. :mrgreen:

You have such a way with words, late_heart. Wow.

I've already spoken out about how I disagree with Hart's assessment that they'd done pretty much what they could with the Zack character (so wrong!). And I do understand what you're saying about the Booth character -- he seems to be more David than Seeley these days, but I think that's because all the characters need to get back to basics, back to the heart of what makes each one of them tick, you know? I'd really like to see Hart try to recapture that. It seems he's forgotten what makes his own show so special, unique and interesting.

late_heart wrote: Still pissed. Unapologetically inatriculate. And totally in agreement with what Eric M. told Kristen about TJ's reaction to his departure: it's not okay.
No, it's not okay. I'm definitely not okay with it. I could go on all day about the ways in which I'm not okay with how things were handled.

But I also want to show TJ some support, because it's got to be disheartening to pour all your energy and talent into something, endure a big change that you might not agree with (but cannot control), hear all sorts of backlash about that portion of the project, and still have to go back to work in the morning, be professional, and do what you do. It's got to be a bit of a mental challenge.

So I hope he knows that no matter what, we love him and support the solid, impressive work that he does and respect all the effort he's put in (and will continue to put in).
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by KimberHodgela »

Sinkwriter72 wrote:I've been pondering a lot today. Came to the realization that the rest of the cast has been back filming S4 episodes during all this craziness, and without Eric, no less. I imagine it's potentially difficult for TJ and the others, not seeing a member of their family every day anymore. Plus there's the pressure of needing to remain professional, no matter what personal feelings they may or may not have about this change in their cast and program. It can't be easy.

I want TJ to know that I'm thinking about him, and that I hope he and the rest of the wonderful cast are doing okay.

And always remember, TJ, no matter what discussions we have here in the forums, no matter how passionate our opinions get, the main truth will always be that we think you are an amazing talent and a terrific guy, and we are loyal to you as fans. That is absolute.

I love ya! :D
Well put, Sherry. My heart is with the actors, too, as they return to work without Eric in their midst. When I think about how much it hurt me to lose Zack this way, I can't begin to imagine how the actors must feel, losing not only Zack, but also Eric.

I was also thinking this week, with the major blow up in the community, that I really hope the actors don't take this to heart. I blame the writers, and I blame Hart Hanson for his ridiculous decision to end Zack because the character had "no potential" and he'd "taken him as far as he could". The actors have done an amazing job, as always, and continue to make the show enjoyable for me. It's just rotten that they don't have better storylines to act out, but ... as actors, I guess there isn't much they can do about that.

After posting my rather angry comments here, and on LiveJournal, it occurred to me that the actors may at some point be online and read what I've written. It's not that I don't stand by my views, and I do believe that this episode wasn't the best (writing wise), but the acting was brilliant, and possibly some of the best. From TJ to Tamara, Michaela, Eric, Emily, and even David - the cast shone in this episode, eve if it wasn't the best.

So what I'm saying is TJ - if you're reading this - we still LOVE you, and will continue to watch the show. I know a main reason I'll continue into S4 is because of the brilliance you bring to Jack Hodgins every week, no matter how few scenes you are in. So thank you for being my ray of sunshine in an otherwise cloudy universe :)
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by Tara »

late_heart wrote:And totally in agreement with what Eric M. told Kristen about TJ's reaction to his departure: it's not okay.
n00b here--where's this interview? Can you link me? I'm still trying to learn which are the best communities for "Bones" news and interviews.
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by late_heart »

Here's a link to a TV Guide blog interview post-mortem interview with EM:

http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry ... /800039999

And the Watch With Kristin:

http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/d ... 016198e1fb

I just follow the carefully strewn crumb trail of those before me ... :D
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by ThyneAlone »

Salut ma chere.
There is a Links forum in the media section where we post our favourites and it's quite a good reference point. Thanks so much for the links Annie, I might just run over and put those in the reference forum. It's not just a matter of newbiness, Tara - I couldn't locate the interview either. E!Online seems to have changed its address or something and I couldn't get in via the channels I am used to, so I'm ever-grateful for my thoughtful pals.

Btw, Tara,just in case you feel a yen for moving things around (you asked down in Welcome if you should move the Bones comments you posted there up here); chill. Quite happy where they are and lots of people have viewed them without complaint. Go with your instincts. The forums are quite well defined so mostly there are specific places for post topics, but we're not anal about it! Find your way around and stop worrying! *hug*
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by Sinkwriter72 »

Hi, Tara!

Here's the link to the interview between Eric Millegan and Kristen from E! Online.

And here are the links to the interviews with Hart:

1. EW.com discussion of the finale + comments from Hart

2. Hart follow-up interview with TV Guide

Personally, I haven't shopped around for that many Bones-themed LJ sites; just don't have the time. But 206_bones is where I'm currently signed up, and they're the group that provided all these article links. I also enjoy bugs_n_slime, which is run by some of the members from this very site (Callieach and Willowwood). There's a little pimpage for ya, gals! ;)


Edit: I see we're all posting the same thing at the same time. :D
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by pib »

I loved the bath clip with booth and bones so funny! i can see why heart did this for example to me personally we never knew zak other then bones grad student like his personal life hodgins has angela booth has his son and b&b are partners we really never knew what zak addy did with all his time off from the jeffersionan its really sad that he is the goremagon cuz he was at the start of the show and not mention how he let the squints down beacuse he is one of them you know he ia the z-man he was so funny and good at his job that it went to his head I cant wait to see what happends next season when B&B go to england or the uk!
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by Tara »

Okay, I ended up posting this on the FOX board, but I figrued I ought to post it here too...

I've spent the last week sorting out how I feel about the episode. I do think it suffered very much from having to compress and resolve the Gormagon arc in only 2 episodes.

II think the Max Keenan arc had a better pacing and resolution in part because we are emotionally invested in Brennan's relationship with her father. Gormagon, OTOH appealed solely as a puzzle, much as with many of the procedural A-plots, what makes us care about solving the puzzles are how the characters evolve. There wasn't time to seed Zack's storyline, or build up to it logically, so we're not emotionally invested in the outcome until the denoument. So it feels out of whack and jarring, for structural reasons. But also in terms of characterisation. I think, had they had 8 episodes to explore what happened to Zack in Iraq, and how his relationships within the team changed both due to leaving and returning, but also the shift in dynamics once Angela and Hodgins fell for each other, it might have made more sense. The strike made that impossible, so they tried to compress the arc, wrapping it up in 2 episodes, losing the luxury of pacing and seeding backstory.

But I agree that while it's consistently shown that Zack reacts to strong personalities and is a follower and not a leader (Goodman and Hodgins recognised that fact in series 1, when they tried to force him to keep stalling and finish his doctorates, because he was too content to stay Brennan's lab assistant forever), I have difficulty believing he would willingly endanger Booth and Brennan the way he did in "The Knight on the Grid". The only way it works for me as a viewer is if Gormagon specifically targeted Zack after he failed to kill Booth and Brennan in "Knight". It makes no sense to me that Zack would have killed Ray Porter in the tag. Gormagon has only 3 goals in life: to recover the skeleton, to keep from getting caught, and to continue his work. Logically, picking the weakest link in the chain which would allow him to achieve all three makes sense.

Do I buy Zack could be convinced to help Gormagon recover the silver skeleton? Given the right set-up, yes. Absolutely. Zack's not good with abstracts. He trusts in absolutes. Given a convincing enough argument, and the assurances that no-one else would be harmed? I believe he would be naive enough to fake an explosion where only he would be in danger, as a diversion. I cannot really buy Zack setting Booth and Brennan up to be killed by an explosion with a teeth bomb. Sorry. I just think it's inconsistent, and not adequately supported by the story and what we know about Zack.

To Zack, Brennan and Booth, and Hodgins and Angela, and Cam are real, significant, and absolutes. I have a hard time believing he'd actively try and harm them--even if he believes they are wrong and being manipulated. I believe that he believes Gormagon because he believed Hodgins (which will have I'm sure emotional consequences for Hodgins next season), where the Illuminati & Co are concerned. But I still cannot make that leap of faith, where Zack is concerned. I can see him being convinced to kill a stranger, if he believed he had to. After all, the Army no doubt did their best to teach him the very same lesson, in sending him to Iraq. But I cannot see him being convinced to kill a friend and a mentor whom he respects more than anyone else in the world. Which is what the show asked of us, when they went from "Knight on the Grid" to "Pain in the Heart".

I can buy an anti-secret-society-secret society serial killer taking out Knights of Columbus, but not a Sith-Lord-There-Are-Always-Two-A-Master-And-Apprentice-Cannibal. They lost me, with that part. Genuinely lost me. I think it was OTT and not actually necessary to the plot, and almost all of my problems with the arc pretty much stem from the Sith-Cannibal part. I just can't buy Zack as the apprentice that way. Weak link in the chain, sure. But Gormagon's Apprentice Sith-Lord-Cannibal? Not as much.

And I hate that Eric was written out. But I just keep hoping Hart & Co will find a way to make it work that's satisfying for the audience, and be the right choice to further the story.

I mean, I miss Dr Goodman, but bringing in Cam was such a smart way to up the stakes by introducing internal tension into the lab. So I know how much it sucks to lose a fave character and actor, for the sake of the moving the story forward. And now I've come to love Cam and so glad she didn't die twice.

So I'm trying to keep faith.
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by xxmeg »

This was a good season finale, as you wouldn't suspect Zack as Gormagons' Apprentice. Well...if I had to choose someone to be the Apprentice, I would of chosen Sweets or Zack. But it's still sad to see Zack go, as he was a good character.

I loved the scene with Brennan going to Booth's place, and she walks in on him in the bath. Next season, they have to get it onnnnnnn! :lol: Even if it's them undercover or something (pardon the pun!).

I feel sorry for the cast though, as I bet when going back for season 4 filming, it will feel strange without Eric, seeing as he has been there since the beginning.

Towards the end of the episode, I felt it was very emotional, as its the cast's goodbye to Eric, and the characters' goodbye to Zack. Hopefully he'll pop up a little in S4, as someone will have to visit him at the home won't they?
Brennan was really upset to find out Zack was the Apprentice. :(
I got a bit tearful at it all! And I'm not someone who cries easily :lol:

But kudos to Hart & Co, as I've absolutely loved season 3, as I'm sure a lot of people have.

Roll on season 4 and Emily and David both coming here to England for first two episodes. Hopefully details may be released of where they are....then I could stalk/bump into them :D

I loved TJs acting in the episode (well I love him in all other episodes!) it's just I think Hodgins saw Zack as a brother, of sorts. Even though they were always fighting to be King Of The Lab!!
That means that Hodgins is now permenant King Of The Lab.
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by sapphiresilt »

Hello, everyone. Well, I've finally seen the S3 finale...and I am still angry about it, three days later! So angry that I doubt I'll be back for S4. I just cannot reward Hart Hanson for what he did to Eric and Zack. In my mind, "Bones" ended when S2 ended. I have not liked a single episode of S3, so it's easy for me to block the entire season out of my mind.

As for the bathroom scene, I think it was inappropriate given the serious nature of the entire episode, and it seemed much more like something DB would do rather than Booth (at least the Booth from S1 and S2). Also, I allowed my 7-year-old son to watch with me (he was fascinated with the Gormagon story for some reason), and he burst out laughing when he saw Booth in the tub with the beer helmet. Let me say again: he's 7!

In addition, I found Sweets extremely annoying, as did my son (at one point when Sweets was on the screen, my son went and got his White-out and pretended to apply it over Sweets' face). What a travesty that Zack has been sacrificed for more Sweets.

As many of you know, I have been a loyal, loyal fan of this show, particularly of the Squints. To me, turning Zack into a Gormagon apprentice was a deal-breaker for me. I have loved Zack and his role at the lab and his friendship with Jack so much that I cannot imagine this show without him. Had Eric wanted out of the show...and/or had they allowed him to leave with dignity...I wouldn't feel this way. But Hart went for the "shocker" and I cannot forgive that. I will continue to watch my S1 and S2 DVDs, and I would love to stay involved with everyone here (I've made some great friends through my love of "Bones" and Jack), but I cannot watch next year.

But, I did want to say that the entire cast did an amazing acting job in this episode. From what I've read, the other cast members were not thrilled with what Hart did, so extra kudos for them for carrying through on their lines. I felt so sad when everyone was looking in at Zack...they were all looking in on Eric, too! And I still feel the lump in my throat.

Yes, it was a Pain in the Heart all right.
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by TJ4ever »

Was this the season finale? Very sad that they have chosen Zack as Gormagons' Apprentice! I will miss him! Sweets would be the better choice! I don´t like him!

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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by begolden »

Dear Eileen,

I feel your pain! I'm glad you've finally got the time to join us here, and please keep coming back. You've expressed my sentiments exactly concerning the finale and Bones in general. Kicking Eric off the show has taken away all the joy. I will still continue to watch for T.J.'s sake, and hopefully you will tune in from time to time when he's had a particularly good part to play in an episode. But as you said, it is heartbreaking, and it will be difficult to watch season four without feeling bitter toward the producers and towards the "new" characters for whom Zack was sacrificied.
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by sapphiresilt »

Thank you for understanding my point of view, Rebecca. I really appreciate it. After reading about what happened in the episode, I was really torn about watching S4, but after actually watching the episode I actually felt betrayed. I know it sounds like a strong reaction, but then I've always reacted strongly to this show! :-). I'm sure I'll read about what happens next season from these boards...and I may well try to watch "just Jack" scenes because I will always love his character...and TJ's portrayal of him. Plus I have a lot of posts to catch up on here that relate to S1 and S2. So I'm definitely not done yet. But unless Hart Hanson can somehow miraculously make the finale of S3 disappear...I'll be a "Bones" fan from afar!

On a side note, I was rewatching scenes from S2 episodes, and I came across the scene in "Spaceman in a Crater" in which this conversation between Jack and Zack takes place:

Zack: These bones are as human as you are.
Jack: Oh, if you only knew how irony packed that is. (Zack looks at Jack, shocked.) It's a joke...don't you be coming around to boil me in the middle of the night.

Before, that was just a lighthearted exchange between two colleagues, but now ....! (Oh, wait, I deleted S3 from my mind, so it's fine! :wink: ).
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by ThyneAlone »

I understand completely where you are coming from, Eileen, certainly enough to cheer out loud once or twice in support as I read your post!

I've not felt much joy in S3 either. Visually it has been less of a feast; Sweets has been introduced for no good reason, since he adds nothing to either the character balance or the investigative abilities of the team; personalities and relationships have failed to develop as they did in the previous series; humour has been pretty unsubtle (sniffing Santas' butts was probably the nadir); ridiculous and unlikely scenarios have been contrived to satisfy the BB shippers (may I underline here that I have no problem with BB shippers. They just may feel they are being short-changed with sledgehammer sexual innuendo and mistletoe engineering).

Eileen, let's not, please, lose your passionate interest in TJ here on site. Don't leave us because of your S3 feelings of betrayal. You are so articulate and have so much to contribute; I would truly miss you.

I've not gone back to view S1&2 yet in the light of this finale. But, like you, I think I'll probably be quite successfully scrubbing Gormagon (always thought that was a stupid plot, once they started with the Sith and the cannibalism and the putting-a-skeleton-together) from my mind and simply enjoying it all in the context of the original relationships. As for S4? Well, I'll try it, gingerly, for TJ's sake, but if the quality continues to decline I might become an 'occasional' viewer. And I'm a big fan, so that's saying something!
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by Tara »

See, I would have been fine with adding Gordan Gordan as a recurring character (which I think it was meant to be--at least from the Dr Wyatt mentions in the first two "Couples Counselling" shorts at Amazon Unbox). But I think that Sweets was brought out of the office and into the lab too soon, and solely to provide another red-herring for the Gormagon arc. Had he stayed a C-plot (paired with Booth, much the way Max was with Brennan), the way Gordan Gordan did in series 2, I think it wouldn't have been as jarring?

But I never resented Fry's character for taking time away from the regulars, so that really didn't apply with Sweets either. Just that Sweets' inclusion into the A-plot procedural mysteries felt awkward and forced, as opposed to Gordan Gordan, who was eased in more gracefully.

But, truthfully, had it been Wyatt and not Sweets in the exact same scripts, I might not have minded as much. Maybe because of Kingdom, with is Fry Being Awesome For Many Hours, (With Added Carol From Wire In The Blood OMG). And I didn't find the gag with Sweets being so young as funny. That said, the "double date" at pottery class broke me. Mostly Booth, with his horse.

I've been doing a strategic re-watch of eps lately (mostly for Hodgins and Angela) and I now watch all the Zack & Hodgins lab scenes with such bittersweetness. Particularly the explosion in "The Girl In Suite 2103". The fact that Zack always trusts the maths, and the explosion is 10x more powerful than it ought to be there as well, makes the call-back in "Pain in the Heart" work really well, in showing you how Zack's brain works.
Last edited by Tara on Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total. word count: 300
In a world full of Uma Thurmans, everyone has an inner Janine Garafolo who needs to be taken out dancing every once in a while.

late_heart
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Re: Bones 3.14 The Pain in the Heart

Post by late_heart »

Hey, Eileen... add my voice to the choir of the distressed. But as a member of the Church of Bones, Orthodox (a cookie for anybody who gets that reference, btw) I stopped attending regular viewings in the beginning of season 3. :twisted:

My old VCR has come in mighty handy, though -- I haven't missed a drop of TJ goodness. And that's my plan for Season 4. All of the TJ, none of the nonsense.

*hugs*
word count: 76
...he remains Hodgins of the unstoppable libido, with the constantly coiling Kundalini, the freaky twist of mystic master meets geekzilla. He’s still a poet, a shaman of the weird, and he’s in there, somewhere...