The Jack And Angela Relationship

Discussion of TJ's most popular venture to date!
Lorenith
Fan
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by Lorenith »

I'm really more thinking from a perspective of what Angela isn't saying, I know it's pure speculation trying to get into her head, but there's a lot more to it than just not wanting a serious relationship right now.

She blamed Sweets for them breaking up, and that means something about how she feels about how it ended. Which works strait into what Sweets has said to her about going celibate, and considering her interpersonal relationships first.

I think Jack is trying to move on already which is good, moving on doesn't mean one can never go back though. As they say, if you love them let them go!

The way Angela and Jack are, it is quite possible for them to get back together, although I hope that Jack will put his foot down on some things first whenever it happens. Although I could just as well see them being good friends, and Jack moving on with little to no pain eventually.

I hope I'm not getting too meta about this though. :oops:
word count: 179

User avatar
ThyneAlone
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2699
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Northwest UK, near Liverpool

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by ThyneAlone »

I have said often that this relationship doesn't work as it should because it's unbalanced. Angela's had the reins the whole time and the reunion is not going to happen while Jack is knuckling under to her control even now.

She has to appreciate him properly and he has to lay ground rules. It might be a long time before that happens.
word count: 65
"We make our lives out of chaos and hope. And love." - Angela Montenegro

Lorenith
Fan
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by Lorenith »

Well I never denied that.

I'm just trying to further dissect what is going on.
word count: 16

User avatar
ThyneAlone
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2699
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Northwest UK, near Liverpool

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by ThyneAlone »

That sounds as if you don't think I'm agreeing with you! I do, completely. You just happened to say this:
Lorenith wrote:I hope that Jack will put his foot down on some things first whenever it happens.
which is something I've felt from way back.
And please do carry on dissecting, I love it!
:)
word count: 58
"We make our lives out of chaos and hope. And love." - Angela Montenegro

Lorenith
Fan
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by Lorenith »

I've got a thought on how Angela conducts relationships in general, but I can't figure out how to word it.

All I can say for now is, it involves her friendship with Bones which goes against all her other flighty tendency, how she seems to regard lovers in general, and some of the deeper reasoning behind why Sweets would suggest she go celibate for a while.

But, I can't find the words for it, so I'll leave it for someone else to mull over. :P
word count: 88

brooke34
Fan
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:38 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by brooke34 »

I was wildly pro-J/A in the beginning. I thought they were different enough people to make the pairing interesting. At the time, TJ and the writers did a very good job showing how Jack's conspiracy theories, sarcasm, and general snarkiness sort of camouflaged this secret romantic. I loved that combination, and I thought he complemented Angela's (seeming) open-heartedness and willingness to experience what the world had to offer without asking too many questions. That moment in "Boy in the Shroud", when Jack put that gorgeous white rose on Angela's desk, gave her that very significant look and walked away without a word, was absolutely beautiful. It kills me to this day. It said, "Okay, this is how I feel, the ball is in your court now." And then, of course the events of "Girl With the Curl" and "Aliens in a Spaceship" were huge as well. And then, and then...

Sometime after Hodgins asked Angela to move in with him and she declined was when I started to think something was rotten in Denmark, so to speak. Not because she declined, because at that point, given the way the chronology of their relationship had been written, it was much too soon. It just seemed like that was the point where I started to think that the balance of their relationship was off, that he was willing to give much more of himself than she was. I was able to let that go until "Spaceman in the Crater", with that beautiful, heartfelt proposal, when he basically yanked out his bloody, beating heart and presented it to her on a plate...and what happened? She said no. Why? Because it "didn't feel right." I'm sorry, what? I guess I have to blame the writers for not making the source of her indecision clearer, but that just really put a bad taste in my mouth, and made me think,"Okay, how many more hoops is this guy going to have to jump through?" And then all the stuff with the nonwedding, her ambivalence about whether or not to hire a private eye to track down her wayward husband, and the shenanigans involving said wayward husband, the kiss, etc. I just don't see any evidence that she's willing to lay it on the line the way Jack has been. And after their barely-explained breakup, the battered corpse of their relationship was hardly cold before she was snippily telling him to "move on" and parading her new/old girlfriend in front of his face. GRRRRR. I don't think the character of Angela was originally conceived as being cruel or indifferent, so again, blame the writers for not doing a better job explaining her thought processes. They were a couple that I once thought charming and romantic, but now I just think Jack would be better off finding someone else, and I find myself watching and thinking, "Hmmm...Jack/Cam? Jack/Agent Perrotta?" Or, whoever. As far as I'm concerned the J/A ship has sailed.
word count: 513

Sinkwriter72
King of the Lab
Posts: 1856
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:21 pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by Sinkwriter72 »

Brooke34, you make excellent points. (Cut to me chuckling a little bit at your vivid but apt 'bleeding heart' description. Hee.)

I agree with your assessment about where things started to come off the rails for their relationship, with the 'move in with me' coming too soon, and the whole mess with the repeated marriage proposals, and the unbelievable twist of Angela already being married (when she was already told about the legitimacy of that marriage back in season 1, so she should have done something about it long ago, and unquestionably should have once things turned more serious with Jack, so that was ridiculous to me), and then the insult of her dragging her heels with the private investigator, and and and... *panting*

But at least throughout all that craziness I felt like I could understand Angela's behavior, that deep down she was afraid of commitment, that she wasn't ready yet.

However, I couldn't stand the breakup. One scene they have this incredibly romantic, gorgeous moment in the street, kissing and coming to an understanding with each other. The next scene, the very next scene they're in together, they're breaking up? How the hell did that happen? It just baffled me. It felt forced in order to create melodrama, in order to move these characters on to other things rather than finding a way to break them up in a way that had more natural, understandable flow.

Then I thought, okay, no matter how nonsensical the breakup was, this could be something interesting. This could be the arc for these two characters all season, and we'll get to see both Jack and Angela figure things out and grow as characters -- Jack realizing that he gave more than he got, that he deserves someone who will commit to him, someone who gives equally; Angela realizing she's not ready for commitment, maybe searching herself to figure out WHY, and either is unable to change (for now) or finally finds that she does love Jack and doesn't want to lose him. I thought it could be a beautiful emotional exploration for each character. I thought it could be amazing.

*head desk* Cut to me disappointed. Not only did TJ and Michaela not get much to do all season, but the stuff they were given was written half-assed. (Sorry, Hart, but in my opinion, it's true.) The Roxy storyline was forced into the show and instead of making it a sincere demonstration of Angela making efforts to figure out her issues and find ways to commit with a whole heart this time around, they barely showed anything to do with that relationship. Except to joke about it. Basically, it seemed to be used as titillation (ooh, two girls kissing!), rather than as a presentation of a genuine loving relationship and its evolution from start to completion. The breakup of Angela and Roxy was just as forced and illogically presented as the breakup of Angela and Hodgins was. It came out of nowhere. How was I to feel bad about them breaking up when we barely saw them together in the first place? It was all rushed. It felt like the writing hurried past anything meaningful, for Hodgins, for Angela, for Roxy, for any of the stories going on for those characters, simply rushed past it all in order to get back to the "Hodgins and Angela might someday get back together" mode at the end of this season. I ask you... since we weren't presented with a story full of substance and emotional depth, why should I care if any of these characters get together or stay apart?

I think the difference in approach is staggering. I was totally on board with the Jack and Angela romance because it was developed so beautifully. They flirted with one another, got along well as colleagues, worked in concert with each other, then they tried to date, and went through all the doubt and uncertainty and awkwardness that can occur when two people work together and also see each other socially, they struggled and fought and avoided each other, then dangerous situations brought them back together, made them realize the depth of feelings they had for one another, and they fell in love with each other. It was wonderfully presented, and it all made sense. There was a flow to their story, even when there was friction or tension or heartache. But this past season there was no subtlety, there was no flow, there was no attention to that kind of detail. Everything was rushed, not a lot made sense, and so much was touched on but never fully explored in the ways they could have been.

If Hart wants these characters back together, I wish he'd take his time with them. Just as I wish he'd be more subtle about the way he approaches the Booth/Brennan relationship. This past season felt like an exercise in over-the-top behaviors and lousy follow-through, and these characters (and the actors who portray them) deserve more than that. This show used to have that kind of emotional connection and detail in abundance. I want Hart to recapture that, for each and every character on the program.

That's not too much to ask, now, is it? :mrgreen:
word count: 893
I want to thank anyone who spends part of their day creating [& sharing their experience]. I don't care if it's a book, a film, a painting, a dance, a piece of theater, a piece of music… I think this world would be unlivable without art. ~ S. Soderbergh

User avatar
ThyneAlone
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2699
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Northwest UK, near Liverpool

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by ThyneAlone »

Shortest reply ever:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
word count: 3
"We make our lives out of chaos and hope. And love." - Angela Montenegro

brooke34
Fan
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:38 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by brooke34 »

Sherry, you are right about the need for a more natural flow to things where J/A are concerned. Someone, I forget who, said that the events leading up to the nonwedding in "Stargazer in a Puddle" seemed to occur in such a way that would specifically result in Booth and Brennan face to face at the altar. If that's true, the trend of manipulating other characters to serve the B/B pairing began long before season 4, and quite frankly, the thought of that is really annoying. :x

And yes, Angela's first marriage was referred to briefly in season 1 ("I jumped over a broomstick with a guy") but even if she doubted the validity of that ceremony, wouldn't it make sense to, oh, I don't know, MAKE SURE before things progressed to the point that she's standing in a church in front of God and everybody about to take vows?

Angela's fear of commitment is not what annoys me. Fear of commitment is a common thing. My annoyance stems from the fact that her fear was never addressed head-on. Not once, from the beginning of their relationship to the horrible, limping end, did she and Jack ever have an honest conversation about these issues. They had countless scenes where he said things like "Are you sure? Is this what you want? Do you love me?", and instead of taking that opportunity to talk openly, which she certainly could have done, it was "Yes, I love you, I want to marry you, you're the only one." Cut to Jack, weeping into his pie. Cut again to me, screaming at my TV and yanking out handfuls of my hair.

If Hart does decide to put these two back together, and probably he will, :roll: for once I want to see an honest approach to it. No matter how much Jack still may love Angela, I don't want him written as being subject to her whims. It would make sense for there to be anger and bitterness, and for him to be gun-shy, and I would like to see that, not only because I think that would be the realistic portrayal, but obviously because TJ would play that kind of emotional turmoil so well.

That's what I would like, anyway. Whether that's what I'll get is something else entirely. I'm not brimming over with faith in Hart at this point.
word count: 411

User avatar
ThyneAlone
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2699
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Northwest UK, near Liverpool

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by ThyneAlone »

I think that a lot of us would appreciate the scenario you describe, though I know that a few are so hacked off with the whole thing they don't want to see Jack and Angela venture near one another again. I know both of them have issues but Angela has always been in control and sometimes teases quite cruelly ("why does it have to be so hard?" was a cry from the heart, I feel).
brooke34 wrote:subject to her whims
Like actually having sex with her to make her feel better after the Roxy breakup? Now that was doormatting in style.
word count: 103
"We make our lives out of chaos and hope. And love." - Angela Montenegro

brooke34
Fan
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:38 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by brooke34 »

Yeah, Steph, when I heard about that on another site I was unthrilled, to say the least. I haven't actually seen the episode in question yet. It's rerunning tonight, so there will be a lot of yelling at the TV and gnashing of teeth.... :lol:

However, shirtless TJ is an advantage that cannot be overlooked. Talk about clouds and silver linings.
word count: 62

vaiseyangel
Fan
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:28 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by vaiseyangel »

I found the whole break up - unbearable to watch. I had to leave the room at times. I know that it adds suspese to the story and keeps us tuning in every week but (grits teeth) why can't the be together? I do have to give credit to T.J and Michaela; they played it so beautifully. I found myself scream at the Television yelling "what are you doing!" Acting like that was the reason that I got into acting myself. I can't wait to see what happens next. nI am currently watching re runs to get my Bones fix and am egerly awaiting next season. Hands down my favourite show.
word count: 113

User avatar
skftex
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2304
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:16 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by skftex »

Hey vaiseyangel, I just want to say Welcome to the Boards!! :mrgreen:
word count: 11
Blessed are they who see beautiful things in humble places where other people see nothing.-Camille Pissarro

User avatar
ThyneAlone
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2699
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Northwest UK, near Liverpool

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by ThyneAlone »

Ditto! Sounds like you had the same reaction as many of us! Please do come to the Welcome forum and introduce yourself; we'd love to know more about you!
word count: 30
"We make our lives out of chaos and hope. And love." - Angela Montenegro

Akarana
Super Fan
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:21 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by Akarana »

I have recently re-watched some Bones episodes to relax between writing my Masters thesis.
Before, I was always so concentrated on Booth and Brennan that I missed a lot and therefore it was a good thing that I watched some epis again. What I saw now when I was re-watching was different from what I saw watching the epis the first time, especially when it came to Hodgins and Angela.

The first time I saw the epis I was like "Aw, they are so cute together" and yes, I felt sorry for Hodgins when she didn't accept the proposals and when she forgot she was married but I always hoped that they would get together again.

That changed when I watched the episodes again because I am now really convinced that she never really loved him. Why I say that? Well, she says so herself. I watched the "plane" episode and this time I got really angry when she said "I'm sorry, I'd really like to tell you that I can't fall in love with a man because it would make it easier for you, but I can... I can fall in love with a man " (Sorry if those are not the exact words, but I didn't transcribe it ;) ). She is really implying that she never really loved him. I got really angry at her this time and when I saw him keeping the earring after she broke up with Roxy and they spend the "night" together I thought "Jack Hodgins, you fool! Just forget about her!".
While I would love to see the Angela and the Hodgins from season 2 together I really don't want Angela and Hodgins together in season 5. I'm afraid she will hurt him again and again and he will keep waiting for her like a lost little puppy.

Jack should really find someone else, a woman who loves him just as much as he loves her.
Now that might seem strange to most bones fans but the more I watch Hodgins and Cam scenes the more I'd love to see them together as a couple because I think they are really similar. Cam is tough, sarcastic and a bit bossy in the lab but in the few private scenes we have seen she is different and I kind of got the impression that she believes in true love, "the one". She has been hurt by Andrew Welton so she knows how Hodgins must feel pining for a woman who can't love him the way he loves her.
Also they are just hilarious together and the reactions of the people in the lab to the two of them would be great.
He might even make her forget about those security cameras she's always so worried about ;)

So while I was really pro Angela and Hodgins now I am more contra and want him with someone else, preferably Cam, because she's amazing! :D
word count: 499
HODGINS: Well, hello, my exotic princess.
CAM: What a charmingly inappropriate greeting, Dr. Hodgins.

User avatar
ThyneAlone
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2699
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:30 am
Location: Northwest UK, near Liverpool

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by ThyneAlone »

Hi Akarana, and welcome!
This is a thoughtful and interesting post. A lot of us see different things in the episodes when we look at them with the benefit of hindsight. You are expressing succinctly and clearly the fears that a number of us have for Jack. Angela needs warmth, love and support, but she doesn't like commitment. This was plain even in the wonderful Skull In The Desert episode in S1, when she had been happy for a long time with an annual relationship which Kirk was obviously sufficiently enthralled to put up with. Until she learns to give back, there's nothing there for the more mature Jack.

I know many people favour Cam as a possible partner for him. They're great together and share that sarky, dry humour. As you say, they have had similar life experiences...they have an adult outlook on the world..they understand and admire one another. Yes, it could work!
word count: 160
"We make our lives out of chaos and hope. And love." - Angela Montenegro

brooke34
Fan
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:38 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by brooke34 »

Welcome vaiseyangel and Akarana! Enjoy yourselves here.

Akarana, I'm glad I'm not the only one that's noticed potential chemistry between Jack and Cam. One thing I've liked about their interaction (and this may have been the case in past seasons, but I'm noticing it more in season 4) is that, Cam being the boss, she knows when to rein him in when his enthusiasm for his experiments or the case at hand gets ahead of what may be strictly practical, but she respects his expertise and his passion for the job anyway. He also seems willing to take her critiques gracefully, even if he may not agree with them all the time. There's a healthy mutual respect there, and a back-and-forth that's refreshing to watch. It makes me curious about what the dynamic would be between the two of them personally. Something tells me there would be a significantly more equal footing than there was/is between Jack and Angela. Also, I'd like to see Angela's reaction to Cam sleeping with two of her exes, just because I think it would be hilarious to watch.

Oh, and welcome back, Steph!

Hillarie
word count: 202

jade.stormcloud
TJ Junkie
Posts: 854
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 9:22 pm

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by jade.stormcloud »

Sadly, I'm still a Jack/Angela shipper. Screwed-up as Ange is, I still think the two of them were happy together & that they'd make a good couple should they deal with their issues.

As for a Cam/Jack pairing.... I just don't see it. I've never noticed a romantic or sexual vibe between them. Their interactions are fun, but always seem, to me, to be strictly boss/subordinate.
word count: 73
“When once you have tasted flight you will always walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward: for there you have been and there you will always be.” - Henry Van Dyke

Akarana
Super Fan
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:21 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by Akarana »

First: Thanks for the warm welcome. I'm kind of used to newbies being ignored at message boards so that's a nice change!

As for Cam/Hodgins (I'm feeling weird posting this here because it's the Angla/Hodgins thread, but it's kind of on topic at the moment, so...):
I think their relationship goes beyond boss/subordinate or co-workers. I can name two scene at the top of my head when Jack asked Cam for advice when it came to Angela, meaning relationships ( The question what it means if two women pack only one bag when they go away and then the funny scene when Cam answered with "semen").
Also there are these small things that for me make their chemistry. Like when she let him be mean and angry at the lab after the break-up but told him when enough was enough.
At the same time he told her it wasn't appropriate to talk about Michelle's smoking problems at the wake and she accepted that.

And I agree that the dynamic between those two would be really interesting. I am not sure if Cam knows about Hodgins basically owning the Jeffersonian, but that would be another funny aspect. That while she actually is the boss he is kind of her boss as well without wanting to be. They together would "run" the Jeffersonian. ;)

I would SO love to see that possibility on screen.
And @ brooke34: From LJ I know that we are not alone out there. I actually feel like since mid season 4 more and more people are jumping onto that ship :D
word count: 272
HODGINS: Well, hello, my exotic princess.
CAM: What a charmingly inappropriate greeting, Dr. Hodgins.

User avatar
skftex
TJ Team Validator
Posts: 2304
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:16 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: The Jack And Angela Relationship

Post by skftex »

First off, welcome to the boards Akarana! Nice to have you here.

While I know why everyone sees the Cam/Jack chemistry, I can't say I'd be thrilled about that for a few reasons. First, it always starts to bug me when all the characters in shows have relationships with so many of the other characters-think ER here-where all of them basically have had relationships with EVERY other character if you think about it. It turns out to be like a huge partner swap or something. I'd hate to work in a place like that, where there is all this history between so many of the people that sometimes it would have to come up and create friction. And you need a flowchart to know who is dating whom by the end of it.

Also I think that it'd change the dynamic of a lot of things, not just Cam and Jack but a lot of the people around them. It'd turn in to a very weird work situation for the others. Its different when the boss thing comes in to play I think, that makes it rough on those around them who also work for that boss and with the employee.

Anyway, that is what I think.
Sharon
word count: 216
Blessed are they who see beautiful things in humble places where other people see nothing.-Camille Pissarro