Spoiler Talk

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skftex
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by skftex »

Hi Steph! I vote for merging too if it isn't too confusing. Its easier if there aren't a lot of threads about the same thing I think. I just wasn't sure if this one was more Jack oriented and that one more Bones in general oriented.

I am thrilled that Zach will still be around...though I'd prefer they hadn't done the whole Gormogon thing to him. Thats the spoiler I put on the other thread. Kind of odd though because the way S3 ended and the comments made afterward by Eric as well as Hart Hanson didn't really seem like that was what they were intending when they wrapped that dumb Gormogon up is it?

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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by Ellen »

speaking of spoilers, i'm sure some of u know that i'm annoyed at not having seen S3 on TV. Not that i complain about it at all, no way! lol. But a friend of mine asked me if i'd been watching it, i told him i hadn't and he turned round and said, "Oh My God! I can't believe it was Zack!"
I already knew somebody from the team was "One of the bad guys" cause i'd read it somewhere, but i had no idea who it was.
So now i pretty much know the whole story line even without seeing it. :(
Oh well, it wont stop me from buying it on DVD! :D
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by begolden »

I'm so angry with the whole show I could just spit.
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Tara
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by Tara »

I actually am waiting to see the episodes. It sounds to me like a bump in the road, more than anything final and devastating. Angela seems angry at Sweets, which makes me think it may have been a blow-up over something that got blown out of proportion, based on his pushing her in a direction she might not necessarily have taken on her own.

Real relationships have setbacks. We've never really seen that many--even the wedding that wasn't was treated by both of them as them going a little too fast. But still heading in that general direction. But I think Jack and Angela are in it for the long haul. And I have to believe, based on the fantastic courtship the writers gave us in season 2, that they aren't foolish enough to fall for the "Moonlighting Fallacy" (the mistaken belief that getting couples 'together" is what kills good shows--not shoddy pacing and bad writing. Look at any show with a romantic relationship at its core, from "Cheers" to "Moonlighting". it's always, hands down, cheap plot devices to keep characters apart long past their sell-by date which kill the momentum and drive both casual viewers and longtime fans away.)

I just want to believe that Hart & Co are smarter than that. Particularly after learning the hard way how badly the Zack plot went down, due to pacing problems caused by the shortened season. This is still the same production team that gave us the swings date, accidental excellent home-made porn, and some of the best writing for couples I've ever seen. People don't just lose those skills. Nor do they purposely try and sabotague their own shows. It wouldn't make any sense.

But what writers do need is conflict from within as well as without. And momentum--even if it is two steps forward, three steps back at times--needs to be maintained. Jack and Angela jumped WAY forward with the almost-wedding. It makes total sense to me for them to have a rocky road to a future together, because as crazy as they are about each other, they are also two unique, fiercely intelligent people with real strong drives in both their professional and personal lives. And it’s because they case so much about each other, and have put their hearts on the line for each other, that the stakes are so high. It has never been portrayed as a casual thing between them. So I imagine when they fight, just like when they make love, there are going to be fireworks.

But casting sides don’t give a whole story. We don’t know the throughlines. We don’t know the progression. What we’re getting right now is out of context, and may not even match what we finally get on screen.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t get angry about the show potentially trying to force Jack and Angela apart because they mistakenly believe the fans want things drawn out because it’s the tension we’re in it for. That’s juvenile and facile, and they gotta know we’re smarter than that, surely???

We just need to continually point out that what we’re in it for is characters we love, in strong relationships, and that well-written romantic relationships aren’t about a race to the altar, or digging up constant “roadblocks” to put in people’s way. It was necessary to bring back Birimbau because he was a plot point. Roxy to me is less likely to be a real problem. If anything, I’m guessing Jack and Angela do it to themselves.

Human beings are funny. We create our own roadblocks half the time. Fictional humans? Just need to make sure it’s a tightly plotted story, with the right beats, and emotional payoffs that do the characters and the actors justice.

But I just have faith that Jack and Angela will find a way back to each other, and it will be a story we want to see, with great performances. You don’t just toss this kind of relationship aside lightly. And the sides thus far show neither Jack nor Angela want to be apart. So I have to believe they’ll definitely find their way back to each other. Hopefully before May sweeps :)
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by Sinkwriter72 »

Thoughtful points, Tara. I loved reading that. :D

Personally, I was always surprised that they jumped so quickly into getting married. I see Jack and Angela as unconventional sort of people. Going the traditional church route doesn't necessarily feel like either of them (to me). In fact, getting engaged or married in the traditional sense doesn't seem like something either of them would be driven to do (or want). Make a commitment, yes, absolutely, especially on Jack's part. But follow traditional societal ways? No way. There are other choices.

There's so much they showed that they don't know yet about each other. There's so much they don't know yet about themselves. They can work on that together, and they can work on that apart. Perhaps it's good that they'll have this 'break' -- maybe it will give them a chance to find what it is they truly love about one another, and what is most important to them. Not every couple ends up married in the traditional sense. They may end up finding that's not what they want or what their relationship needs. They may come back together with a better knowledge of each other, and a stronger commitment to what they mean to each other.

Like Tara so wonderfully mentioned, these are the writers who gave us such funny and touching moments throughout the series, between Booth and Brennan, Jack and Angela, Brennan and Angela, Jack and Booth, Zack and Brennan... we know they can do it well. In my belief, it was only season three where things really started to unravel, and as Tara pointed out, the shortened season made them choose a direction for the story arc that they hadn't originally planned. Things get messed up when you're in a hurry and can't/don't necessarily stop to consider the full scope.

I'm not trying to excuse Hart or the other writers/planners. I wish they had chosen to handle things differently. You all know I loathed the Zack-as-Gormagon's-apprentice 'twist.' I felt it did not honor him, the direction he seemed to be taking as a character, or the potential he had for emotional growth. I felt it ended up a device used for shock value, rather than what it could have been: a fascinating demonstration of a character's struggle and descent to illogical, inhuman choices.

Still, Tara's right. They've shown us that they can do it brilliantly and beautifully. That can't be erased so quickly. It's my hope that this season will get back on track, and that the writers will return to what they do best, rich character connections and subtle character development intertwined with interesting mysteries. My fingers are crossed. :mrgreen:
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by begolden »

Yes, thoughtful posts, gals.

But I'm still spitting.
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by Sinkwriter72 »

If this upcoming season doesn't show improvement and a return to the quality of writing and consideration of all the Bones characters, I'll join you in that activity. We'll have a contest to see who can do it the farthest. :mrgreen:

And then we'll go kick Hart's butt. ;)
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by begolden »

LOL, Sherry! A spittin' contest indeed! The butt-kickin' sounds pretty cool too...
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by ThyneAlone »

I'm impressed with your reasoning, Tara, and your positive ideas. I am getting slight stirrings of interest for S4 now, thanks for that!

A propos of nothing, I've now merged the Bones spoiler thread with this one. At first glance it doesn't seem to disrupt the flow much, if at all. There is probably enough spoilage in the Bones forum, as people inevitably comment on material others haven't yet seen (but at least thread titles generally indicate that).
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by ThyneAlone »

Sides up for 'The Bone That Blew'. It seems Cam has employed Max at the lab to do some kind of science enrichment class with kids. Nothing J/A though.

It appears that the ep that was meant to be no.4 (approx) has now been pushed to 4.02, airing 10th September. As is rightly pointed out (ta genevieve), this could well screw with the order of the various interns trying out for Zach's place. And of course might cause the sudden, as opposed to gradual, split in the Hodgela relationship. But hey, what the heck; they didn't exactly move naturally toward the wedding decision, did they?
:roll:
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by ThyneAlone »

Looks like fairly regular sides appearances are back. Next ep recruiting is 'The Skull In The Sculpture'. It's about art and artists...
I see Roxie has turned up.
Angela's lover from way back.
Now I know the Buffy original was a skilled job, but please don't let this become Willow and Tara! I have too much invested in my bug guy!
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by ThyneAlone »

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New promo, thanks to willgirl at theaby.org..what's with the hair???!
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by ThyneAlone »

http://spoilerfix.com/bones.php
You're not telling me they are 'getting rid' of Birimbau in the same ep where he comes to say how much he still adores Ange? Puh-lease.
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by Sinkwriter72 »

Late_heart says they straightened his hair?

He always looks good to me, but... the curls had personality. They shouldn't try to make him like everybody else. His character's slowing getting sucked out. That's no fun!
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by TJ4ever »

Wow! I like the picture! Like the hair, too, but the curls were very cute, too. It suits him. Why did they change it???

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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by sofilps »

I see we want the curls back!

Curls! curls! curls! First was the fro' now the curls?? We are running out of Hodgin! Anyway, he still looks amazing!
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Re: Spoiler Talk

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You're not telling me they are 'getting rid' of Birimbau in the same ep where he comes to say how much he still adores Ange? Puh-lease.
Has there been a change in script? That's sure what it sounds like. And that little spoiler about what happens after the divorce... now that might be fun! (I imagine it will be Cam, don't you think?) If Birimbau grants the divorce so quickly, what causes Jack and Angela to break up? Why the hell do we need an ex-girlfriend (of Angela's) thrown in the mix? Just because the writers want to feel like their show is hip and cutting edge? Why not bring in an ex-boyfriend of Booth's? (yeah, I know it would be out of character, but why is it always the girls and never the guys?) Now we have ironed haired Hodgins--although you still can't diminish his handsomeness... I'm soooooo tired of all this crap!!!
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by ThyneAlone »

Not been in here for a while, as you can see by the facts that I have not commented on Hodgins' hair being reassuringly normal so far and that Birimbau has indeed been disposed of, albeit in a rather unsatisfactory way. A side or two (can't recall) did go up for Con Man in the Meth Lab, but nothing of significance. I am, however, commenting on Passenger In The Oven, http://community.livejournal.com/bones_spoilers/which is just up, because it has Roxie in it, yeurrrgh, and Hodgins in conversation with Angela uttering the dreadful lines that "sometimes you have to give yourself completely, not hedge your bets". And he "wants her to be happy, he really does". *beat* and Angela says "Thanks".

Now there is not the slightest doubt that TJ will render this utterly convincing, but omg it looks poor on paper. How many times during S3 and the end of S2 did you say of Jack and Angela 'but real people just don't talk like that'? Please come forward if you can think of a better way to write that scene without smashing us in the face!

Of course I may be infinitesimally influenced by the brilliant book I have just bought which traces, through his emails, Russell T Davies' writing of 'Doctor Who' scripts. There is a section where he bemoans lazy writing beloved of soaps. That 'thanks' ending, followed by an exit, is something he particularly dislikes, along with phone calls where no-one says 'goodbye', arrangements to go out for the evening without a mention of a meeting place or time, and break-up exits where Person 1 does not stir to follow Departing Person 2. He's not keen on flashbacks without a very good reason either (this is one of my main beefs with HP & the Half-Blood Prince, and I reckon it will show in the film when it's out, the fact that it's nothing but flashbacks of Voldemort's history to fill in what we don't know). But I'm straying offtopic. Not keen on the engineering of Roxie's presence - will we learn Angela's real name though? - or the clichés in our lovers' mouths. Talking of which, Ange and Roxie's somewhat forced parody of the Romeo & Juliet balcony scene with references to risotto had better be funny and well-acted or I'm not going to like that either...
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by English Al »

It'll make a change to see a supporting co-star's character turning gay after being with men for the previous 3 seasons. It's soooooooo original! I think it's called "the Willow effect".
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Re: Spoiler Talk

Post by late_heart »

Why not bring in an ex-boyfriend of Booth's? (yeah, I know it would be out of character, but why is it always the girls and never the guys?)
I agree so completely, Rebecca. The writers get kudos for having a bisexual character on the show, but why did it have to be Angela? It irritates me both from the 'adventurous artist' easy angle and from the 'all 'girls' experiment' and 'girl on girl is every guy's fantasy' angle as well.

Lazy, lazy, lazy. Now if they made Caroline bi, or Brennan, I wouldn't be so dissapointed in them. I'm already shuddering to think what Booth's reaction to A/R is going to be.
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